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Heavy Missiles, lets make them interesting

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Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 597	Posted - 2015.01.07 13:54:32 - [1] - Quote I still think long range missiles should be good at hitting "Fast" moving targets and struggle to apply damage to "Small" targets. This would give synergy to long range missiles being paired with Target Painters (makes sense). Then short range missiles should be good at hitting "Small" targets and struggle to apply damage to "Fast" targets. Then we get synergy with webs and short range. Then Flare rigs would be useful for long range missiles and Rigor rigs would be useful with short ranged missiles. I also feel that missile launchers really now need to be "fleshed out" a lot more. We currently have only one choice per weapon system. You're either: rockets or lights HAM's or HML's (with RLML's) Cruise or Torps (with RHML's) Turrets get good choices (eg Dual 150mm, 220mm or 425mm) which allow for choices between tracking, fitting and projection within each class (long range or short) Why can't launchers get similar options. I don't believe the choice between RLML, HML and HAM is a choice as they all serve different roles and are technically different classes of weapons. What I'd like to see is something like this: Heavy Missile Launcher II (Low fittings. Standard operation) Dual Heavy Missile Launcher II (V. High Fittings, 1/2 RoF, Fires two missiles per shot)
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 598	Posted - 2015.01.08 15:00:39 - [2] - Quote scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote: Stuff comparing turrets and missiles namely the use of tracking computers/enhancers Yes, Turrets do get modules that assist in the projection and application of damage. Yes, Missiles only get two different rigs (where only rigors are important) and target painters to improve application and turrets also benefit from the use of painters. However. Missiles =/= Turrets. They work incredibly differently. For starters, missile users can completely ignore their own transversal velocity to the target as they know it doesn't effect their own application. Speed and size is all that matters to them. There are only three ways to reduce or mitigate damage. (excluding links and drugs) Speed Smart bombs Defender Missiles Speed is the only really viable one. Now lets look at the different weapons fitted to a properly fitted Caracal. That means maximizing tank, DPS and damage application. The Caracal is a kiter. So I haven't gone for any kind of brawler fits as you simply can't get the tank for it. A HAM Kiter (1x Rigor Rig) using a TP applies very good damage to cruiser and above and (IMO) acceptable damage to a frigate A HML Caracal (2x Rigor Rig) using a TP and no point fitted as it should be operating at above 75km range to target gets good application vs cruisers and acceptable application vs frigates which can be further boosted by using precision missiles The RLML Caracal is a special snow flake though. But I think people need to consider the fact that it's burst DPS is much higher than it's sustained DPS. You also should fit a range rig in order to get very good projection. If you compare actual range and damage of comparable turret ships it all looks pretty good. Including how well you can tank these ships. All in all, I think missiles are in a generally good place (Including heavies). They currently aren't used very much because of the insanely overpowered Ishtar.
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 598	Posted - 2015.01.08 15:32:45 - [3] - Quote afkalt wrote: Caracal cant lock passed 72km, maximising tank is going to be tough with 3 mids down for prop/TP/SeBo and 2 rigs down for what....a couple of hundred dps if you're lucky since the painter is in falloff too :) ? It's not the ishtar - there is a reason slippery petes do not use missiles. My HML Caracal fit has a targeting range of >93km and approx. 20k eHP. That is plenty sufficient for a ship hanging about at >75km. I can't find another T1 cruiser that can do that and get similar applied damage to target at ranges between 70-90km. A 250mm Railgun Moa perhaps but that needs to use Spike ammo which is pretty damn awful. Not to mention how terrible railgun tracking is at close range which missiles just ignore. Stealth Edit: A Sentry Vexor can compare in range and damage and can fit a huge armour buffer still. But, you know. Because of Sentry.
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 598	Posted - 2015.01.09 07:46:10 - [4] - Quote Soraelion actually seems to know what he is talking about. I wouldn't dismiss his comments.
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 598	Posted - 2015.01.09 08:15:33 - [5] - Quote afkalt wrote: If he is correct, it shouldn't be hard to produce decent charts with proofs. Trouble here is, doing so /correctly/ reveals the glaring holes in heavy missiles. For instance no one has contested that they do damage at 0m and you can get under guns HOWEVER the point is that advantage is not worth the loss of effectiveness from 10-max range. Attempting to argue they are 'fine' whilst being sub par in all common engagement types and ranges is hard to believe. That is but one example. Also - for really chuckles, add skirmish links to the mix and...wow. Properly fitted HML ships deal comparable damage with a relative turret fitted counterpart. I will concede that skirmish links break the whole situation because they are wholly broken. At an absolute push I would say HML's could use an explosion radius reduction of between 5-10% (probably around the 8% mark would work best)
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 598	Posted - 2015.01.09 08:34:41 - [6] - Quote Caleb gets it. HML is NOT a solo weapon system. The only ship it works really well on in the solo situation is the Orthrus. But that's "because of Orthrus". If you want to solo with medium missiles you use HAM for pure damage where you SHOULD have a scram and a web fitted with a rigor rig and you get the advantage of being completely immune to tracking disruptors. RLML gives you a nice kiting platform for lower sustained damage. This actually seems like it's by design! HAM - brawling RLML - kiting HML - fleet I don't understand why people want to use HML's in a solo situation. That's not really their design. P.S @ afkalt they really do!
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 598	Posted - 2015.01.09 09:34:36 - [7] - Quote People don't use Cerb's because Ishtar's are massively overpowered. A HML Cerb fleet would be like the days of olde HML Drake fleets. Only a lot better and faster. Seriously. HML Cerbs en masse would be devastating. They actually outperform Ishtars at ranges >100km and less than 60km when using Mjolnir missiles vs Bouncer II's. Even when the Bouncer II's are in their sweet spot they're only maginally better than the cerbs HM's. The main problem being that missiles have flight times. HM's could use a bit of a velocity buff and a flight time nerf to make them very useful at ranges >50km. I think the only reason people don't use Cerbs is because of drone assist.
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 598	Posted - 2015.01.10 07:35:01 - [8] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: Just a troll at this point I think. But what the hell. http://i.imgur.com/ht1PruT.png WITH AB http://i.imgur.com/8J45o92.png WITHOUT AB HML RED BEAMS GREEN RAILS BLUE (FEROX) RAILS TEAL (BRUTIX) ARTY YELLOW Drake is using 3x Fitting slots for damage application. Cane is using 3x Fitting slots for damage application. Others using 2x Fitting Slots for damage application. One of these things is not like the others. What are the eHP's of these ships? The fact that you have to fit an AB instead of an MWD or MJD is a massive drawback on the defending ship. They then completely lose their ability to dictate range. I notice that the Drake does not have a TP fitted (or you would see a distinct drop at 45km). If anything. All this graph proves to me is that Arty completely sucks.
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 598	Posted - 2015.01.12 09:41:43 - [9] - Quote I'm confused as to what this DPS drop is when shooting HM's at BC's. Even with AB's on I'm only getting a very small drop in DPS and that's beyond the single TP's range of 45km which is fitted to the Drake already! I've been making some graphs of my own. My HML Fleet Drake fits do comparably well vs everything else (except a Myrm because of Sentries). The Arty Hurricane and HML Cyclone are really pathetic compared to the rest of the pack though.
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 598	Posted - 2015.01.12 12:32:20 - [10] - Quote I've just been doing a hell of a lot of comparison of BC's fitted for long range and seeing how well they can apply their damage to an AB'ing armour tanked rupture. My conclusion in the end is that the only buff required for missiles is an optimal range buff for TP's to 60km. How would that suit you?

Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 598	Posted - 2015.01.12 15:35:06 - [11] - Quote I'm actually gonna go back on my previous statement and say that the TP range buff would be un-necessary as the fall off of the TP actually only means that the success chance of the TP landing is still >90%. This means you can more or less rely on your TP's all the way out to 72km. So HM's on a Drake seem to work nicely (ignoring the fact you're locked into kinetic damage). Railguns seem to be the things throwing everything out of wack at 50km and greater. Those things are damn good out at those ranges! But they are very rubbish at <25km which is where Beams and drones rule. On cruiser platforms I was looking earlier and I think the Caracal performed very well comparatively. I will check again though
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 598	Posted - 2015.01.13 12:08:01 - [12] - Quote No one seems to be mentioning that missiles are immune to tracking disruptors which are devastating to turrets.

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